It was a cold and wintery night, the floods were coming and it seemed like God was angry at somwthing. For a change, we had Ms. Asling O’Connell in the chair to open the 8^th meeting of the Literary and debating Society this year. The main business for the night was the abortion debate but forst the meeting was opened up for Private Members Time motions:

Deirdre Judge (Sin editor) proposed that TTH has lost its Moral Fibre

She told us that while she has enjoyed many events with the society, she took issue with the audience with Cathal O Searcaigh. Not at his speaking, but at the lack of questions, without which she said left litle to no value in what he said.

Jackie Driscoll (3^rd Med) and Auditor opposed saying that he was and is a well respected poet, taught at both 2^nd level and 3^rd level education and just because some people dont like him, it doesnt mean that others cannot. If a guest of the society doesnt want to have a Q&A, you can’t force one on them and decided that there was still value to the event even without a Q&A section.

Tony McDonald (HLM) while he welcomed the return of the Irish language into the society and poetry too he said the denial of the right to question the speaker was a limitation of freedom of speech and not something he would like to see occur in Lit and Deb.

Dave Finn (HLM) told us that controvertial does not always equal bad and the concept of moral fibre is one relative to each individual. Questions and answers were not always a part of the society’s Literary events and to acquiese to populism and not hold it would be a far greater loss of moral fibre.

Joeseph Loughnaine (LLM) explained that he felt the lack of questions and engagement with O’Searcaigh gave him a platform that couldn’t be challenged. He did what he felt had to be done and said the lit & deb not only expected controversy, but they courted it.

Eileen Coughlan (2^nd Arts) stressed that were were normal channels for recourse and that just because the results may not be in your favour, it doesnt make you justified in your actions. The value fo the event was obvious with his work being stuied in the college and the number of individuals who enjoyed the event.

Beartla DeBurca (Past member) said the society was courting controversy, and to say otherwise suggests the Jackie is out of touch with reality. Without a Q&A he souldn’t ahev come down to the society and asked why questions couldnt have just been submitted beforehand

Eimear Spain (2^nd Science) saidf the scale of the event and the intent of the event were very different from other examples people were using. He wasnt talking about Katmandu, the event wasnt about that and the event would have been of significantly less value if it had been.

David Crowe (2^nd Law) suggested that the societies approach to the event was narrow sighted and they should have considered the wider student body

George Karr (2^nd Law) asked simply, what would you get out of a Q&A? A simple denial and that would be it, so where was the value in that?

Motion was summated and defeated

Then came time for Main business, Aishling handed the chain and the power over to Jackie and she started the event. The motion befoer the house was TTHW legalize abortion in Ireland.

Unfortuantely due to the weather conditions the guest speakers for the event were not in attendence. One was trapped on a train and the other trapped in rural Ireland. Thankfully however, Mike Spring and Sean Butler were there to stand in.

Mike Spring (Postgrad Eduication)

told us that this was an issue that mainly effected the young in society and that it stems from Ireland living in the shaddow of the Catholic church. Schools teach with bias and the issue is never given a fair airing.

17 women a day go to the U.K. for abortions so its not something this law is stopping from happening, all it is doing is making it more difficult for women.

Why, when you consider this can it not a choice made by each individual person, as its a personal issue at all times.

Sean butler (Bsc & HLM)

Its is not the destiny of one life that is at stake, it is the destiny of two lives and we must protect the ones who cannot defend themselves. Having a child is not the end of the world, and even if you dont want it adoption is an option.

All human beings have a right to life regardless of social worth and that is a principle that the state should extend. Any one of us could have been that mistake, but because of the legislation we are here today.

The debate then opened to the floor

Brendan Gallagher (Adult Education) women have a right to control their bodies. Catholic church is sexist and dont listen to women in this regard,a nd the later date at which these procedures are taking place abroad makes them more dangerous.

Beartla De Burca (Past member) tiold us that Fetus’ have souls, that he could prove it and that therefore they were human, so we have to let them be; then asked are we waging war on the unborn?

Conor Kelly (Arts) there is a clear and definate harm to the woman, no clear definition on the status of the fetus. Have to look after her interests first, abortion is an act of self defence both physically and sociatally, and the women owes this thing inside her nothing. Why is it that women have autonomy until they get pregnant, then the Governement have absolute say over her body?

Maria Mahony (postgrad Irish) this was not a fair retaliation against the fetus, its not just a clump of cells, its the begingin of a person you wouldnt allow it if they were 1 year older so why now?

Cornellia Carey (3^rd Med) aboertions at later dates were much more risky for the women and that was reason alone to allow it. It happens anyway, why not just minimise risks.

Tony McDonald (HLM) Cannot legislate for biology and it was unfair putting the reproductive control of a species in the hands of one gender. Women have to accept the consequences of ther actions and understad that it goes beyond them themselves.

Ronan Fitzpatrick (3^rd Science) no-one has proven their definition of life to be true, so its all shades of grey. He told us that morality was subjective and self interested and so should be left up to the indivduals to decide for themselves.

Lyla Rose (UCLA) Whats the difference between a fetus and a two year old. These are humans, they cannot be anything else and so we must extend them the same rights as we would for humans.

Heber Rowan (4^th Arts) legalising it normalises it and makes it safer. He also told us about the falling rates of abortion in Spain in recent times.

George Karr (2^nd Law) women must accept thats its not just them anymore and thats why this shouldnt be an option.

Motion was summated and Defeated,

All that was left to do was thank everyone for their contributions and invite everyone back to the dail for a post debate drink,

These are the minutes

Recording Secretary

163^rd session