Minutes of the 14^th Meeting of the 161^st Session

28^th February 2008 ~ Kirwan Theatre ~ The Israel Debate

AND so it was that the 14^th meeting of the year was held here in the Kirwan with Paddy Cluskey chairing. Main business for the evening was the Israel debate, but before that we had Private Member’s Time. Niamh McNally proposed the motion ‘That This House Would Not Support Kosovan independence’. Niamh said how allowing Kosovo to break away from Serbia undermines the whole idea of sovereign nation states, and told us how the Kosovo region has always been the cradle of Serbian history and culture. Just having a majority population in an area, she said, does not give a group an automatic right to secede from a recognised State. She also said how Kosovo would suffer under independence, with massive unemployment and infrastructural problems already plaguing the region, as well as there being a big problem with mafia-style gangs having sway over many parts of the region.

Generalissimo Juan Butlero, opposed the motion, saying how all countries must follow their own path. Serbian pride, he said, is not a good enough reason to deny the Kosovan people their independence. Sean said that although the region does have serious economic problems, at least under independence, they’ll be Kosovo’s own problems and will be able to find their own solutions to them. He also pointed out how the Kosovar people simply can’t continue living in Serbia.

Dave Finn proposed the motion, saying how historically, Kosovo has always been a Serbian region, but that in the last 100 years or so an Albanian majority has emerged. Dave compared the situation to that of the Basque Country in Spain, where people have been living there as a separate culture for 2,000 years, but to give them independence would be ultimately do more harm than good to Spain and themselves.

Alan Lyons warned that if a newly-independent Kosovo attempts to re-join a ‘Greater Albania’, this would completely destabilise an already volatile Balkans. He also said how many different ethnicities in the Balkans are living all across borders and so simply seceding from countries won’t work.

Dan Colley said how we should support independence to groups able to sustain themselves, and seeing as Kosovo will remain an EU protectorate for some time, it should succeed as it’s own state.

In a surprise appearance at the Kirwan, Charles Stuart Parnell (1^st Arts) said ‘no man has the right to fix the boundary of a nation. No man has the right to say to his country, "Thus far shalt thou go and no further".

Mike Spring, surely our next SU President, supported independence, saying how the international community can’t just come along to an ethnic Albanian group and say, ‘actually, you’re Serbian’. Preserving states at all costs, he said, goes against the idea of people changing over time.

Muireann O’Dwyer said how giving Kosovo independence is just a quick fix solution, and that re-integration with Serbia is a better long-term solution for the region.

With that the motion was put to the House, and defeated, so best wishes to Kosovo from the Lit & Deb.

So onto main business, and the definitely non-controversial motion ‘That This House Regrets the Existence of the State of Israel’.

Muireann O’Dwyer opened the case for 1^st Proposition. She told us how since the creation of Israel sixty years ago, the world has suffered from hurt and instability from Zionist oppression. She said how the experiment of an exclusively Jewish state had failed. Israel has become an anti-Arab state, a brutal and ruthless entity that has long lost it’s way. Muireann said how other populations were decimated during World War II, but they managed to successfully integrate into existing states, instead of forcing out an indigenous population.

Jackie Driscoll spoke in 1^st Opposition. She said how it’s unfair to judge Israel a failure after only sixty years of existence, and said how being a Jew is not just a religious identity, but an ethnicity too. The Jews, she said, were a dispersed people who wished to return to their Holy Land and stay there. Jackie pointed to how all the neighbouring Arab counties had invaded Israel immediately upon it declaring independence, and claimed the Palestinian displacement wasn’t all Israel’s fault.

Conor Kelly proposed the motion, and told us how for over 600 years, Jews and Arabs had lived in relative harmony in Palestine, until the idea of Zionism destroyed this peace. He told us how Israel was brought into existence by Jewish immigrants buying up tracts of Palestinian land and then banishing native Arabs from it at gunpoint. Conor questioned why the Jews in Israel could not co-exist with the indigenous population, like they already did in Britain and the United States, and condemned Israel’s actions towards Palestinians since independence.

Zoe McNair opposed the motion. She told us how although the Israeli government sometimes does bad stuff, especially towards Palestinians, the very existence of the State of Israel should not be regretted. Zoe told us how the Israelis were willing to share the land following World War II until the Arabs started attacking them. She said how the Jews had been moved on from everywhere they had tried to settle, and that a Jewish homeland simply had to happen. She concluded by saying we can’t blame the State of Israel as a concept for it’s failures today.

Peter Mannion proposed the motion, saying how Jewish texts should not be used to dictate modern borders and pointed to other religious groups that can co-exist within different cultures, such as the Amish and Mormons in the United States. Peter spoke of Israeli human rights abuses towards Palestinians and of how the Security Barrier crushes the Palestinians’ struggling economy. He concluded by saying how the Israel/Palestine conflict has helped spark the current clash of civilisations between Islam and the West, and had led to bombs on trains and nightclubs across the world.

Catherine O’Connor supported Israel’s existence. She said how it is recognised as a legitimate state by the UN, the United States, and even some Arab League states. Catherine told us how the Jews were the original inhabitants of Palestine, long before Islam even existed as a religion. She also pointed to Israel’s technological advancements that power our computers and medical devices. The land of Israel, she said, is central to Judaism, and this should be recognised and supported.

Sean Butler was the final speaker on proposition. He said how Israel’s actions today totally contravene international law and that the state’s very creation amounted to nothing more than large-scale theft of land. Sean told us how the Jews weren’t kicked out of every country they ever went to, but that even if they were, that still gives them no right to disposes an entire nation of their land. Finally, Sean told us how religious dogma is not enough to justify a sectarian occupation of other people’s land.

Ronan Fitzpatrick closed the case for the opposition. Ronan told us how it was not Israel that has caused the split between the West and Islam, and pointed to the Crusades, Vienna, and Constantinople as evidence of an ever-going conflict. He said how the Jews learned the great lesson of the 20^th century; if you’re a minority, get your own state. Ronan claimed how there was always a Jewish presence in Palestine and that removing the Jews from the area won’t remove the problems.

With that, the debate was opened to the floor.

Paul MacEoin proposed the motion, saying how just because Catholics see the Vatican as a Holy Place, doesn’t mean that all Catholics should move to Rome. He was then verbally-raped by Niamh, and sat down.

Joe Quinn claimed our forefathers, through the Limerick Pogrom of the 1920s, had forfeited our right to speak on this motion. He said how the anti-Semitic views of 19^th century Europeans forced the Jews to look for somewhere else to call home. Joe also warned how the greatest tragedy is yet to come, springing from Israel’s actions towards the Palestinians, and that the Israeli government has said it would rather use their nukes than go through another Diaspora.

Dave Finn said how Israel’s actions are a policy of self-perpetuating violence and Mutually Assured Destruction with the Palestinians, and said how Zionism, not Judaism, is the problem with the State of Israel.

Alan Lyons said how Fatah, Hamas, and Israel simply can’t and won’t get along, while Conor the American waxed lyrical about the arbitrary nature of borders and how it’s all about power politics, and also said ‘ya’ll’ several times.

Niamh McNally said she regretted Israel as a Western construct imposed on a homogenously Muslim region. Arrogant Europeans thought they could get rid of their Jews, she said, and so encouraged and supported the creation and sustainment of Israel. We have created a monster, she said, and the blame lies with the Western states.

Our final speaker of the night was Joseph Loughnane. He said how Israel was created as a Western outpost in a region un-brainwashed by American interests. He told us how ultimately it was the Jews that stole the land, and so they are to blame. Joseph also said how the Jews run the American media and push their agenda, and that ultimately, the West uses and controls Israel as a tool for keeping the Middle East in line.

With that the motion was put to the House, and Carried.

These are the Minutes.